Curse

JoeKnowMo · Jan 23, 2008, 09:26 AM // 09:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kwan Xi

The priority is to make sure that they don't go down in the first place one Monk alone hybrid or no doesn't have the energy to keep an 8 man party functioning alone. (assuming you didn't bring a 3rd support paragon, or Restoration Rit along).

Actually, I've kept an 8 person (7 once the other monk quit) party alive in NM through several missions and quests in EOTN by using a hybrid build. And I'm a pretty bad monk.

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If the other monk is only comfortable using healing spells wouldn't it make sense to just adapt into a full protect rather then kick the monk and try to find another one that can play Hybrid?

If the other monk is only comfortable using healing, it still makes sense to optimize your bar by going hybrid. For PvE, your best prot choices are: RoF, PS/Sbond, SoA/Shielding Hands, Dismiss/Mend Condition, and Aegis/Guardian. That still leaves 3 spots for healing spells like WoH, Dkiss, Patient Spirit, Cure Hex, LoD (only with Mindbender, imo), a rez (if you must), or GoLE.

Anyway, man. We're not picking on your builds just to be mean or to feel superior. Don't take things personally. When people like Ensign, Masamune, Yichi, Savio, and others post in your thread, it's with good intentions. It feels like you're overreacting to those who disagree with you.

Relax and take a step back. I think you'll see that no one is out to make you look bad or launch into personal attacks.

Pyro maniac · Jan 23, 2008, 11:54 AM // 11:54

RoF is bad in PvE imo

Chthon · Jan 23, 2008, 07:12 PM // 19:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

You don't need 12+ prot or 12+ DF, you get slim benefits from having bigger numbers.

You don't need 12 prot, since the scales on most prot skills are so small. Heal and DF are another story.

A lot of folks around here seem to feel that 35 hp for a major rune is just too big a cost to ever pay, and Grenth forbid you'd ever think of giving up 75 hp. And yet we're perfectly happy to give up more than that for the sake of hybridizing. So long as someone's red bar isn't making it back up to full, it doesn't matter if the missing hp is coming off the top or off the bottom; as far as your current hp cares, health not healed is functionally equivalent to health that was never there. Going from 14, 13 to 13, 11, 11 is going to cost 21 off WoH, 13 off a triple-proced DKiss, 16 off a triple-proced DKiss+HBoon, and 15 off ELight+HBoon. How many heals is someone in a bad situation going to get before they get back up to full health? If it's two or three, then speccing 13, 11, 11 instead of 14, 13 is the equivalent of sticking every member of your party with a major rune. If it's closer to 6-ish, then a sup rune. If you buy the idea that 35 or 75 hp can be an absolutely critical buffer between alive and dead, then you can't dismiss the numerical benefit of 12+ Heal plus 12+ DF as trivial. You may decide that you value the tactical benefit from hybridizing even more, but you can't consistently assert that 35 more max hp is absolutely crucial while 13-21 hp per heal is trivial.

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Pretty sure you can find a way to put prot on HBoon, and that having a lot of skills to make red bars go up is inefficient.

Can I stick prot on a HBoon? Sure. But, let me repeat: There are non-redundant ways to fill 8 skillslots without speccing 3 attributes. HBoon + spot heals is going to take 3 spaces. You can put prot into the remaining 5 spaces. You can also fill those remaining 5 spaces with attribute-agnostic skills like condition removal, non-spot-heal skills that benefit from a high healing spec like Cure Hex, and non-spot-heal skills that benefit from a high healing spec and from HBoon like Heal Party.

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Bar topping is useless...
Why does everyone have to be at 100% health?...
Why do you even need another skill for bar topping?

Bar-topping is not about keeping people at 100% health; it's about increasing the safety buffer their current hp gives them. The higher one's current hp, the harder one is to wtfpwn with a large burst of sudden damage. That's the driving factor behind the current "more max life" craze. But, all the +hp weapon bonuses and vitae runes and minor runes in place of sup runes aren't doing a bit of good if those hitpoints are always left empty. Tossing Sig of Rejuv on the party member with the lowest life whenever there's a lull in events that require immediate attention is probably the single best way to make sure that your party doesn't take any surprise deaths.

Why dedicate a skillslot to sig of rejuv instead of just using your spot heals for the job? To preserve your resources. Paying 5e whenever you want to bar-top would quickly leave you too low on energy. And it would be a lot of wasteful overhealing. Putting WoH on recharge for non-critical damage may leave it unavailable when critical damage occurs.

I might add that I find it funny that the same people who, until recently, insisted that every build should use a bar-topping elite are now calling bar-topping "useless." That's right boys and girls, LoD is a bar-topping skill. It's heal/sec is waaay too low to work as a spot heal or even an effective party heal. What it does do is give you a way to push current hp up to maximize the safety margin whenever there's a lull in events that require immediate attention, cheaply (5/8e per person isn't free, but it's a lot cheaper than 5e per person) and without tying up your spot heals. Don't be fooled by the fact that it bar-tops everyone at once, LoD is a textbook bar-topper skill.

@Ensign: Incidental bar-topping with party heals is insufficient for the task. Heal Party is too expensive to use as often as you'd want to bar-top. Divine healing recharges too slowly. Healing ribbon is... well... healing ribbon. LoD isn't a party heal; it's a party-wide bar-topper.

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and res is unnecessary.

Most of the time everything except spot healing is unnecessary. The question is whether it's useful. It is, therefore it goes on the list of monk functions. You may feel that it's the least useful function, so it always loses out to the other five, but it still belongs on the list.

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Prot is better than healing; preventing damage is more efficient than healing damage.

This is absolutely untrue. With two exceptions, preventing damage is less energy efficient than simply healing it after it happens. Seriously, go through and compare the heal/e on the best spot heals to the prevent/e for the best prots with reasonable values of hits/sec and damage/hit. Healing is more energy efficient. It's not even very close.

Prot's inherent advantage is pro-activeness, not efficiency. A healer must be reactive and can be overwhelmed by damage coming in faster than they can react, or faster than their skills can be chain cast. On the other hand, because it's proactive rather than reactive, prot works just as well, and in some cases better, the faster damage is coming in. For the same reason, prot is more forgiving of mistakes: The penalty for missing a heal can often be an instantly dead party member; but, if you miss a prot, at least you can still heal.

(Those two exceptions where prot is more efficient:
1. Against extremely stat-pumped monsters, PS and SB become highly efficient when (almost) every hit is certain to trigger them.
2. In tank-n-spank situations, skills that trigger on every hit for their whole duration (SoA, SH, Gaurdian) become highly efficient on the tank because the hit/sec goes absurdly high.)

Coming back to the main point: Ultimately, healer + protector versus two hybrids comes down to choosing between numerical superiority, mostly on the heal build, and the tactical advantage of being able to do the other monk's job when they can't. Neither advantage is trivial, and trying to compare them is somewhat like trying to compare apples and oranges. Personally, I tend to prefer the big numbers, so I often run a spot-healer/party-healer/remover, maybe with PS or Aegis thrown on at very low spec, and a remover/prot-heavy hybrid with WoH and maybe a second spot heal. I can see the the advantages (and disadvantages) of running 2 hybrids instead, and I'm not going to try to convince anyone that's a terrible idea. But what I cannot understand is this mindless - and often very rude - insistence that hybrid is the only way to do things.

neoflame · Jan 23, 2008, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Bar-topping is not about keeping people at 100% health; it's about increasing the safety buffer their current hp gives them.

I think you have a different definition of a bar-topping skill (which, as far as I can tell, is just "energy-efficient heal") than most people, since Light of Deliverance (which doesn't even heal things over 80%) would not be a bar-topper by most definitions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

This is absolutely untrue. With two exceptions, preventing damage is less energy efficient than simply healing it after it happens. Seriously, go through and compare the heal/e on the best spot heals to the prevent/e for the best prots with reasonable values of hits/sec and damage/hit. Healing is more energy efficient. It's not even very close.

Ironically, you're making an argument for hybridization here. Yes, the very best spot heals (Word of Healing, Dwayna's Kiss) are in fact very efficient; their recharges are also short enough that if you just want to spam direct heals over and over again for some reason, these two almost suffice on their own. But, say, Orison of Healing, or Healing Whisper, or... well, basically everything else in the healing line, vs. Reversal of Fortune from a monk who won't just spam it on a guy getting wanded, or Prot Spirit on a fire ele getting smacked by an Aatxe? No contest. Therefore the optimal build would in fact take those best spot heals, and then switch to the most efficient prots for the remainder of the bar.

Quote:

Personally, I tend to prefer the big numbers, so I often run a spot-healer/party-healer/remover, maybe with PS or Aegis thrown on at very low spec, and a remover/prot-heavy hybrid with WoH and maybe a second spot heal.

So you're running two monks, each of which carry both Healing Prayers and Protection Prayers? (I sincerely hope you're not running a 7s Aegis.) What does hybrid mean again, exactly?

Chthon · Jan 23, 2008, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by neoflame

I think you have a different definition of a bar-topping skill (which, as far as I can tell, is just "energy-efficient heal") than most people

A bar-topper is a spammable heal with a low absolute resource cost for moving up bars when there's nothing better to do. Efficiency isn't so important as low absolute e-cost.

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Ironically, you're making an argument for hybridization here.

No, I'm not. I am making an argument that pure-heal > pure-prot in most cases (in response to a dead-wrong assertion on that specific point). I am making an argument from which you can (correctly) draw the inference that a bar full of redundant spot heals is pretty bad. No where am I making the (unwarranted) jump from the fact that you have spaces available after putting in the best spot heals on the bar to the proposition that prot is the best choice to fill those spaces. Those spaces could be filled with bar-topping, party healing, hex removal, condition removal, rez, or prot. I do not see any a priori reason that prot should be chosen to fill all or most of those slots. Some prot skills are so nice that an argument could be made that they most deserve those spaces (PS comes to mind), but I'm not making it. (And neither or you; you're just asserting it with no support.) On the other hand, the need to make a non-trivial sacrifice from your spot heals' efficiency in order to bring much prot suggests that attribute-agnostic skills (like condition removal) and healing-linked non-spot-heals might be better choices for those spaces. That might leave you with a build that uses skill from both lines, but it won't spec prot or prevent damage like a true hybrid would.

Kwan Xi · Jan 24, 2008, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

Anyway, man. We're not picking on your builds just to be mean or to feel superior. Don't take things personally. When people like Ensign, Masamune, Yichi, Savio, and others post in your thread, it's with good intentions. It feels like you're overreacting to those who disagree with you.

Relax and take a step back. I think you'll see that no one is out to make you look bad or launch into personal attacks.

I wasn't angry at you I was angry at one other person, I am angry at the people that just throw their negative opinions into this thread without backing up their reasons. Or their only reason is because it is something they don't normally play and start making assumptions about others.

This more reasons why I think I'm ready to bury this thread..... I really don't know whats going on with these new posts anymore and every valid point has already been discussed.

In the end I just don't care if you use my builds or not. I was never out to nail Hybrids but I get the feeling everyone thinks I am out to say that 1 Heal/Protect is better then Hybrids and its seems this is getting everyone pissed. I really just don't care about this anymore my original intent was to show a 1 healer 1 protect combo that works in PvE and to show that this is a working option besides Hybrids all the time, but it just ended up being a stupid flame war for all the Hybrid hardcores out there so there's no point anymore.

RhanoctJocosa · Jan 24, 2008, 12:10 AM // 00:10

[skill]Reversal of Fortune[/skill][skill]Signet of Devotion[/skill][skill]Guardian[/skill][skill]Protective Spirit[/skill][skill]Offering of Blood[/skill][skill]Divine Boon[/skill][skill]Mend Ailment[/skill][skill]Holy Veil[/skill]

Yichi · Jan 24, 2008, 12:40 AM // 00:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa

[skill]Reversal of Fortune[/skill][skill]Signet of Devotion[/skill][skill]Guardian[/skill][skill]Protective Spirit[/skill][skill]Offering of Blood[/skill][skill]Divine Boon[/skill][skill]Mend Ailment[/skill][skill]Holy Veil[/skill]

Oh how I miss thee...

Savio · Jan 24, 2008, 01:15 AM // 01:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kwan Xi

I wasn't angry at you I was angry at one other person, I am angry at the people that just throw their negative opinions into this thread without backing up their reasons.

Ensign and others backed up their reasons, you're just unhappy that almost everyone disagreed with you. You're treating arguments against your builds as personal attacks, which means you don't have any rational argument to stand on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

With two exceptions, preventing damage is less energy efficient than simply healing it after it happens. Seriously, go through and compare the heal/e on the best spot heals to the prevent/e for the best prots with reasonable values of hits/sec and damage/hit.

How do you measure the numbers for skills like Aegis or Prot Spirit?

Of course there are efficient healing spells, those are the ones the hybrids bring along. But prot is more efficient than the rest of the spot-heal and non-spot heal and bar-topping crap you insist on bringing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

A bar-topper is a spammable heal with a low absolute resource cost for moving up bars when there's nothing better to do.

If there's nothing better to do, you wand or loot stuff. If you have time to stand around using crappy skills, it's not a battle you need to be concerned about.

To cover the rest of your points: two monks healing at 80% efficiency are better than one monk healing at 100% efficiency.

Ensign · Jan 24, 2008, 03:40 AM // 03:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kwan Xi

Yeah nice job see two builds I use in PvE, I decide to share them and you assume I don't use or play anything else maybe you should read the other posts I made before shooting off like that.

I don't understand what I said that makes you jump immediately to ad hominem and start making a bunch of assumptions about my motivations. Are you trying to distract people with your life story or trying to drum up sympathy? A wall of text that's a non-argument isn't any sort of substitute for having a point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyro maniac

RoF is bad in PvE imo

It varies quite a bit by area. Through much of normal mode it isn't very impressive TBH, and a second spot heal is probably better. If you have a player Paragon with you it's not very good. If you don't, RoF is pretty spectacular throughout most of hard mode. On a Word of Healing bar, I think it's usually in the running with Dwayna's Kiss for the second spot heal slot, depending on the composition of the rest of the build and the area.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

But what I cannot understand is this mindless - and often very rude - insistence that hybrid is the only way to do things.

It's not the only way to do things. You can spam Glimmer of Light and be successful; it's not that hard. What people, myself amongst them, insist is that hybridized Monks, in the hands of players who are minimally competent at Guild Wars, are leaps and bounds stronger than single purpose Monks. The reasons for this have been beaten to death, and any rudeness, at this point, is a product if exasperation of dealing with the same fallacies, inaccuracies, and the same general failure every single time this topic comes up. Discussion is only a reasonable format when all differing views have credible ground to stand on. When they don't, discussion is possible; the only reasonable response that I know of, is ridicule.

There has been a surprising lack of ceiling cat in this thread, I must admit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kwan Xi

I wasn't angry at you I was angry at one other person, I am angry at the people that just throw their negative opinions into this thread without backing up their reasons.

I used to get angry at people who don't read stickies or use search functions before posting crap. But I don't anymore. It's too common and not worth the energy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

To cover the rest of your points: two monks healing at 80% efficiency are better than one monk healing at 100% efficiency.

It's not 80% though. I'm practice it's two Monks healing at 95-98% efficiency compared to one Monk healing at 100% efficiency.

Kwan Xi · Jan 24, 2008, 04:16 AM // 04:16

is it alright if I say I overreacted and apologize? Will this stop this flame war before it gets way out of hand?

I'm sorry

Savio · Jan 24, 2008, 04:34 AM // 04:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

It's not 80% though. I'm practice it's two Monks healing at 95-98% efficiency compared to one Monk healing at 100% efficiency.

I wasn't saying they're actually that bad, but apparently Chthon thinks that not having 12+ DF is inefficient. (Maybe he thinks hybrids run low healing too, I dunno what he thinks hybrids are.) Even if hybrids are as bad as Chthon claims, it's still better than just having one monk healing.

Chthon · Jan 24, 2008, 05:29 AM // 05:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

I wasn't saying they're actually that bad, but apparently Chthon thinks that not having 12+ DF is inefficient. (Maybe he thinks hybrids run low healing too, I dunno what he thinks hybrids are.) Even if hybrids are as bad as Chthon claims, it's still better than just having one monk healing.

Wow speaking of flame war...

1. Where did I ever say that hybrids were bad? Did I not say:

Quote:

Originally Posted by myself

I can see the the advantages (and disadvantages) of running 2 hybrids instead, and I'm not going to try to convince anyone that's a terrible idea.

There's nothing wrong with hybrids. It's this silly idea that running 2 hybrids is simply superior to any other option that's bad.
Should I take the fact that you have to put words in my mouth and then personally attack me for them as a sign that you can't refute my position on its merits?

2. Efficiency is relative. Yes, compared to 12+ DF, 10+ DF is less efficient. On a scale where hp maxes out around 600, the difference is non-trivial. You can decide you value the tactical benefits of hybridization more, but you're sticking your head in the sand when you pretend that you're not paying a cost for doing so.

3. I'm done with this discussion. My better instincts told me that posting here was a waste of time; that most supporters of "hybridization >>> all" do so uncritically, mindlessly reciting recycled rationales they read here on the forums, because it's the popular build to have these days; that dogmatism had replaced principled justification for the "hybridization >>> all" position. But when I saw Kwan Xi getting picked on from all sides, I decided to wade in here despite my better judgment. I've seen all the rote, comprehension-less repetition of the same old arguments (many of them overstated or out-and-out wrong) that I expected to see. But what shocked and disappointed me was to see members of the community who are supposed to be known for their reason and clear thinking (I'm looking at you now, Ensign) summarily (and rudely) dismissing anyone who questions today's popular sacred cows, refusing to actually put any thought into the issue, and falling back on "that's just the way it is" as a justification for their position.

JoeKnowMo · Jan 24, 2008, 07:12 AM // 07:12

Regarding Energy Efficiency:

- A well placed Prot Spirit can prevent loads of damage, oftentimes much than what you'd get from a Heal Other.
- A Spirit Bond can heal for upto 840 HP, or 420 HP if it triggers just 5 times.
- A Shield of Absorption can negate 100s of points of damage for just 5e.
- Let's say a mostly physical mob of 6 hits your team a total of 30 times in 11 seconds for an average of 40 damage. That's a total of 1200 points of damage. A 11s Aegis would have prevented 600 points of damage for a measly 10e.

If you use your prots wisely, they are far more energy efficient than healing.
Sure, a Dkiss can be extremely energy efficient and can heal for oodles on a heavily enchanted/hexed target, but they're a staple on most hybrid bars.

2 hybrid bars allow for 2 copies of Aegis that can prevent a ton of damage for relatively little energy.
2 hybrid bars allow the monks to take the best skills regardless of the attribute line they belong to.
2 hyrbrid bars allow you to take the best elites for PvE which happen to be healing related, like HBoon, WoH, and LoD (with Mindbender, imo).
2 hybrid bars prevent one monk from being overtaxed against certain types of damage. The pure prot monk will have to work overtime against a spike mob and the pure heal monk will have to work overtime against a pressure/degen mob.
2 hybrid bars allow the monks to save one another better.
2 hybrid bars work much better in HM than pure heal/prot bars.

When exactly is a pure heal/prot setup better?

The small gain in power by going 14 Heal/Prot, 13 DF is not worth the loss of having multiple copies of key skills such as Aegis and Dkiss, as well as access to an elite like WoH, HBoon, or LoD. When you run pure prot/heal monks, you are paying a much huger cost by gimping your bars.

The extra healing gained by the pure heal monk going 14 Heal, 13 DF does not come close to matching the efficiency of having a second copy of Aegis. The pure prot monk running 14 Prot, 13 DF is far less efficient that a hybrid one that has access to Dkiss and WoH.

PvE players have been doing the pure prot/heal thing forever. And frankly, they're the ones who've been blindly sticking to it. It's a relic from the early days of having a tank, a bonder, and a healer for farming groups.

It's a horrible setup in PvE. The most efficient pve monk setup (going by the skills of the average pve pug monk at protting) is for both to go hybrid with HBoon and WoH as elites. Take 2 copies of Aegis. Take 1 copy of prot spirit, mend condition, Shield of Absorption, Dkiss, Heal Party, GoLE, and fill the rest of the bar with heals, sig of rejuvenation, and maybe a hex removal.

Div · Jan 24, 2008, 07:53 AM // 07:53

I tried to type something logical, but it just wouldn't come out. Like...do you guys seriously monk? After getting 60'ed over and over in HM, don't you eventually realize your builds fail? Seriously, if you post a crap build, be ready for people to jump on it and say it sucks, and maybe 50% of them will say why it sucks. Accepting that you're bad/wrong is the only way you'd get better.

Amy Awien · Jan 24, 2008, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

I'm done with this discussion. My better instincts told me that posting here was a waste of time; that most supporters of "hybridization >>> all" do so uncritically, mindlessly reciting recycled rationales they read here on the forums, because it's the popular build to have these days; that dogmatism had replaced principled justification for the "hybridization >>> all" position.

They're just scared and insecure, clinging to their believes because their dogma's provide them the 'certainty' that they've made the 'right' decisions.

Kwan tried well, but got shot down, not for presenting bad ideads, but for questioning their dogma's and thus threatening their sense of security and control.

Age · Jan 24, 2008, 10:48 PM // 22:48

When it comes down to a healing bar with out any protection to protect you.I would atleast have some kind of secondary skills fro say /W in the form of stances to help substitute no protection skills if aggro was lost.the way I look at it all is a Monk shouldn't staining themselves if their team mate are doing enough damage to get the jop done don't forget it is not just the Monks jop it is the whole team.It is like the success of the mission is all on the weight of the Monks performance at their jop.

What about the others in the team if they are doing enough damage the faster it goes.The Monk won't be strained all that much but often is.Monks shouldn't be using most of the skills on their bars anyways.

I will say this though there isn't anything wrong with a little protection on a healers bar even if it is for yourself like guardian or rof just look at what those charr Stalker do to Alesia 6 outside of piken sqreas she has no protection from all those ignite arrows and penetrate.It only has to be 3 to 4 points in protect.This is still a game this sounds like real medicine.

Why is it that Rangers seem to get along with their fellow Rangers?Monks just sit here a squabble with each other.

Grammar · Jan 24, 2008, 11:19 PM // 23:19

I'm having trouble understanding how some people in this thread are having trouble understanding the painfully simple logic behind hybrid monks.

1. Law of Diminishing Returns
2. Redundancy
3. Lack of Versatility

Simple as that. Those are the three reasons why pure heal and pure prot monks aren't efficient. All three of those problems are eliminated by using hybrid setups on both monks, thus greatly improving efficiency. It's just that simple.

I simply don't understand how there can be a three page argument on this.
The only explanation I can think of is that some people somehow fail to see one or more of the above problems in action when they play pure heal or pure prot monks. And in all fairness, it's hard to accept the solution if you can't see the problems, and it's hard to see the problems if you don't know what to look for.
So instead of just repeating tired old mantras over and over ("hybrid ownz all!!1!), it's much more constructive to help people see the problems in action by showing them what to look for.

Now, if I didn't have to take my cat to the vet in half an hour I might be inclined to make a "How to Spot Inefficiencies" guide of some sort. And if I wasn't so lazy on my days off from work, I might be inclined to make said guide later tonight after returning from the vet. And if I wasn't so lazy on the days that I do work, I might be inclined to make said guide tomorrow or at some later date. But alas, I'd rather be playing the game than typing a massive post about it (this one is long enough), so I'll just leave you with a few incredibly brief hints before I go...

- When you regularly have more than 1 spot heal fully recharged and ready for use at a time, that's inefficient (Redundancy).
- When you heal someone with WoH for ~250hp when ~230hp would have been enough to get the job done, that's inefficient (Law of Diminishing Returns).
- When a heal monk spams spot heals on someone suffering from massive degen because they lack condition & hex removers, that's inefficient (Lack of Versatility).
- When a prot monk spams multiple small prots on a target near death because they lack a large direct spot heal, that's inefficient (Lack of Versatility)
- When you sacrifice one attribute (heal or prot) altogether so that you can max out the other, just so your heal spells can heal for ~5% more or your prots can last an extra second or so, that's inefficient (Law of Diminishing Returns)
- When you max out your divine favor attribute so your spells heal for an tiny extra 3hp or 6hp, that's inefficient (Law of Diminishing Returns)
- When you have multiple low recast time spells on your bar that all do the exact same thing, that's inefficient (Redundancy).

Stormlord Alex · Jan 24, 2008, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

There has been a surprising lack of ceiling cat in this thread, I must admit.

Sorry! ... I was banned

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

They're just scared and insecure, clinging to their believes because their dogma's provide them the 'certainty' that they've made the 'right' decisions.

Kwan tried well, but got shot down, not for presenting bad ideads, but for questioning their dogma's and thus threatening their sense of security and control.

Funny, cute, and wrong.

Ensign, Savio, Joe et al aren't clinging to any dogma. They're merely correct. Comprendez?

Burst Cancel · Jan 25, 2008, 12:38 AM // 00:38

I like Cthon's debating/trolling tactics:

1. Defend unpopular viewpoint.
2. Use arguments that have been previously discussed and refuted ad nauseum.
3. When others refuse to re-hash the same arguments, cry "blind dogma", lack of rationality, etc.
4. Declare "I am done with this thread".

I'd like to remind those of you screaming about dogma of the following:
- Something popular is not necessarily right - but nor is it necessarily wrong.
- Something popular is not necessarily without merit.
- Unwillingness to discuss is not equivalent to an inability to discuss, especially when such discussion has been had in the past.